Talk:Ivan Olshansky

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Requested move 2 March 2022

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. After much-extended time for discussion, there is no consensus for a move at this time. BD2412 T 03:46, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ivan Olshansky → Jonas Alšėniškis – There should be a Lithuanian name for this article about a Lithuanian noble. The name "Ivan Olshansky" (supposedly Slavic) is not used by any of the Slavic wikipedias (Russian wiki - Иван Ольгимундович Гольшанский (Ivan Olgimundovich Golshansky); Polish wiki - Iwan Olgimuntowic Holszański ; Belarusian wiki - Іван Альгімонтавіч Гальшанскі (Ivan Algimontovich Halshansky) Cukrakalnis (talk) 18:33, 26 February 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 19:29, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 16:07, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What are reliable sources indicating? TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 15:08, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Biography has been notified of this discussion. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 19:29, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Looked up some books I own, and it really seems that "Olshansky" seems a bit odd choice:

William Urban, The Samogitian Crusade (1989): Ivan von Galschan
S.C. Rowell, Pious princesses or the daughters of Belial: Pagan Lithuanian dynastic diplomacy 1279-1423 (1996): Ivan Alšėniškis
Daniel Stone, The Polish-Lithuanian State, 1386-1795 (2001): Ivan Holszański
Robert I. Frost, The Making of the Polish-Lithuanian Union, 1385-1569 (2015): Ivan Holshansky

I would recommend move to the Ivan Holshansky per Frost Marcelus (talk) 21:47, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I also checked and in the Latin text of the 1401 union he is named Yvanus Olgimunti Marcelus (talk) 21:55, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support "Jonas Alšėniškis" gives me 2 results in English-language sources at Google Scholar [1] while "Ivan Olshansky" and "Ivan Holshansky" give me 0. On the other hand, "Alšėniškis" "Grand Duchy of Lithuania" gives me 16 results [2] while "Olshansky" "Grand Duchy of Lithuania" gives me 4 [3] and "Holshansky" "Grand Duchy of Lithuania" gives me 3 [4]. The Olshanski article seems to state that the family was of ethnic Lithuanian origin. Based on this, the Lithuanian name would apparently be more common. Super Ψ Dro 22:31, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if TheBirdsShedTears saw this response, so I am pinging the user just in case.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:32, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I was only asking for reliable sources. If added sources indicate Jonas Alšėniškis then it is time to move this article into proposed title or if it is referred by its current spelling then keep the title unchanged. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 22:56, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- TheBirdsShedTears, sources indicate Jonas Alšėniškis (1. Railaitė-Bardė, Agnė. "The Appearance of the Hippocentaur in the Heraldry of the Nobility of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania." Lithuanian Historical Studies 17.1 (2012): 71-90. (https://brill.com/view/journals/lhs/17/1/article-p71_3.xml), 2. Petrauskas, Rimvydas. "The Lithuanian nobility in the late-fourteenth and fifteenth centuries: composition and structure." Lithuanian historical studies 7.1 (2002): 1-22. (https://brill.com/view/journals/lhs/7/1/article-p1_1.xml), among others; both are shown here [5]). On Google Scholar, there are no results for Ivan Olshansky [6].--Cukrakalnis (talk) 23:14, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As Super Ψ Dro showed, Jonas Alšėniškis should be used following WP:COMMONNAME. I will also point out to Marcelus, that the same person (Jonas Alšėniškis) was referred to or referred to himself by at least three different variants during his lifetime: Iwan Awmunten, Iwan de Galscha, Yvanus Olgimunti (for proof, check out the last paragraph of the article).--Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:48, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, the person in question was a Catholic, which contradicts any notion of him having been an Orthodox/being Ruthenianized, if anyone was wondering.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:52, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The person in question wasn't Catholic by a Ruthenized Orthodox that's how Robert I. Frost describes him (p. 84). Sholar is only a one of the WP:COMMONNAME indicators, others are books and articles that aren't included in Sholar. As you perfectly showed the person in question never was called "Jonas" in his lifetime, always Ivan. The German document calls him actually "Iwan de Galshan Ongemundes son". Bychowiec Chronicle calls him "Iwan Olgimuntowicz Holszanski" Marcelus (talk) 23:33, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The person in question is a Catholic, as written by Jan Tęgowski (and which I found on the pl.wiki). How do you know he was called Ivan? Yvanus is not Ivan - Yvanus sounds closer to Jonas than Ivan. The German document calling him "Ongemundes son" only reinforces that he was a Lithuanian, because Ongemundes is clearly the Lithuanian name Algimantas, just weirdly written. Lithuanian heritage, Catholic religion - clearly not a Ruthenian.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 14:38, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So you refer to a source that you do not know and have not checked what it says? After all, this footnote does not even have a page given where something like this would be written. In that case, this information should be removed. No one claimed that he was not Lithuanian, he simply bore the name Ivan and was a rhutenised Orthodox. Yvanus is of course a Latinised Ivan. Marcelus (talk) 17:09, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I found a Polish-language source saying he was Catholic and also signed once as Jan Algimuntowicz and put both of these into the article. Considering he converted to Catholicism, even if he converted from Orthodox Christianity, he would not have done that if he had been very Ruthenianized. Cukrakalnis (talk) 18:02, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, this is a very old source that mixes legends with actual history, I don't think it's a trustworthy source. Moreover, the source does not state that Ivan embraced Roman Catholicism, it only says that he could. Moreover, it is clearly stated that he used the name Ivan and that he was certainly Orthodox. But you didn't write that because it doesn't fit your version, right? We have a much more recent source, in English - the work of Robert Frost, who states clearly that Ivan was Orthodox.Marcelus (talk) 19:09, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The source states precisely the reverse. It states that he embraced Roman Catholicism, while a previous Orthodox baptism was a possibility (Holszańscy nawrócili się chyba jeszcze przed Jagiełłą , a więc na ruski obrządek , bo skądżeby później wzięli się u nich władykowie i dobrodzieje ławry kijowskiej ? Zda wałoby się jednak , że krew czysta litewska , rodzina ciągle w Litwie osia dła , bo Holszany , Olszany , zamek ich dziedziczny jeszcze do dziś dnia prze trwal burze czasów i wznosi się pod Oszmianą , że książęta powinniby przyjąć wiarę chrześcijańską według rzymskiego obrządku z Jagiełłą w roku 1386 . Obok greckich znajdujemy w istocie i łacińskich chrześcijan w tym domu, ale łacińscy są późniejsi. Widać przechodzili z greckiego obrządku na laciński. (p.53) Where in those pages was it written that he was certainly Orthodox? But you didn't write that because it doesn't fit your version, right? You are the one who removed a Polish-language source stating he was Roman Catholic, even if in normal circumstances you would have totally let it be - apparently, it was good to be on pl.wiki for fourteen years and counting since 2008 [7], but for some reason, Marcelus decides that English wiki should not have that. Frost states that he is Orthodox, but Tęgowski and others state he is Catholic.-- Cukrakalnis (talk) 21:06, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You copied the source straight from the Polish Wikipedia, without checking it. I can give a benefit of a doubt to the author of Polish article, but it's clear that you didn't have a Tęgowski article book in hands, neither did I, so you cannot say for sure what is written there. Besides, I never carefully read either the Polish or the English article before your submission. However, the rule is simple: you only give the sources you use when writing an entry, you cannot "copy" footnotes from translated articles from other Wikipedias. I don't know how good your knowledge of Polish is, but the text from Orgelbrand is clear, it says that the Holshanskis as a Lithuanian family should have been baptised with Jogaila, but everything indicates that they adopted Orthodoxy even before his reign, and the Latin rite they adopted later. In any case, Orgelbrand's encyclopaedia is outdated. Marcelus (talk) 21:24, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Besides the arbitrary view that references should not be copied straight from other language wikipedias, it is bizarre that you would devalue in such a manner the writings of someone who was an expert writer on the Polish and Lithuanian nobilities. When talking about Polish or Lithuanian nobility, it is far more reasonable to listen to Julian Bartoszewicz than Robert I. Frost.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 21:42, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well it seems that I was wrong, it seems that English Wikipedia allows to include same sources that the original article used, seems weird to me, but ok. Still Tęgowski's reference is without a page number, I will try to check this book as soon as I can. Frost is of course much better expert on this topic than Bartoszewicz who lived 150 years ago, it also doesn't matter because Bartoszewicz doesn't claim that Ivan Holshansky was Roman Catholic. Marcelus (talk) 22:10, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we both got some things wrong and some things right. At least we are improving this article. I think the list of mentions definitely adds something important to the article. Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:24, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What about the name? I really do believe that Ivan Holshansky is the best one Marcelus (talk) 22:40, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the name, it remains as Super Dromaeosaurus wrote.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:43, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Only if you choose to ignore books I qouted Marcelus (talk) 23:04, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Here I see Frost again being pushed by Polish extreme nationalists. Well it could be worse - sometimes Marcelus & frens reference 19th century books as in the article on Lithuanian nobility - books even Google cannot find and from a century where books on the topic are known to be gloriously biased and unreliable, with spring of nations birthing many “facts” subsequently disproved. 213.222.183.137 (talk) 21:31, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you are referring to the Wolff's book from 1895, here is the link. I don't know where you find a bias there. Please don't call me "extreme nationalist", that's not true, and it's a personal attack, which is violation of WP:NPA Marcelus (talk) 22:00, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Google Books results (only English texts):

Jonas Alšėniškis: 100 results search
Ivan Olshansky: 234 results search
Ivan Holshansky: 4 results search
Iwan Holszanski: 239 results search
Ivan Holszanski: 5 results search

Oppose it's not a most popular version of the name and not the historically accurate Marcelus (talk) 23:40, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

After inspecting those Google Books results, they are clearly useless, because after searching in the given results for those names, few appear. Moreover, the first results for "Iwan holszanski" [8] are Eastern Destiny: Russia in Asia and the North Pacific G. Patrick March (1996), Death, Torture and the Broken Body in European Art, 1300–1650 edited by Dr John R Decker, Dr Mitzi Kirkland-Ives (2015), The Tailor-King: The Rise and Fall of the Anabaptist Kingdom of Muenster by Anthony Arthur (2011). Comparable results are given for "Ivan Olshansky" [9]: Russian Intelligence Services Vladimir Plougin (2007), Hindu World: An Encyclopedic Survey of Hinduism. In Two Volumes by Benjamin Walker (2019), Shifting Grounds: Deep Histories of Tāmaki Makaurau Auckland by Lucy Mackintosh (2021)...

The measures you have provided are totally irrelevant on account of the nonsense that they produce. You accuse me of suggesting historically inaccurate names, but did this person ever sign as Ivan Olshansky or as Holszański? Clearly not. Cukrakalnis (talk) 09:05, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's reach, the person never used name "Jonas Alšėniškis". This is merely a modern reconstruction of how his name might have sounded in Lithuanian. Meanwhile "herczog Iwan von Galschan" is clearly "duke Ivan of Halshany" Marcelus (talk) 15:26, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Five out of six mentions include his father Algimantas (Augemunten/Ongemundes/Awmunten/Olgimuntis/Olkimontowicz), so Iwan von Galschan is an arbritrary choice. Another of his signatures, de Gloschaw would be better rendered as of Galšia (another Lithuanian name for Alšėnai). Better just use the name most frequent in the modern historiography and just leave it at that. Cukrakalnis (talk) 15:50, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to use most frequent version than it's pretty clear cannot be "Jonas Alšėniškis". Holszany/Olszany it's clearly Slavic name, you can find dozens of towns and villages named that in Belarus, Poland, Czechia and so on.Marcelus (talk) 18:36, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What about the Olshanski family names? [10] This problem of Polish/Lithuanian name modifications needs to be solved ultimately. Everywhere I peek is the same issue.. - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:13, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bizarrely, there is NO uniformity in the surnames of that category: Ivan Olshansky, Semyon Olshanski, Uliana Olshanska, Paweł Holszański and Sophia of Halshany. Well, except that out of five of them, four are obviously Slavic-sounding. Cukrakalnis (talk) 16:21, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's natural for this region. First generation were Lithuanian (Algimantas), next generations were Ruthenized, and the last one or two Polonised, and that's reflected in their names. Same with many other families, in Poland there was a family Unruh/Unrug, which was originally German, then Polish, then German again, and Polish once more Marcelus (talk) 12:27, 15 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You think? How about a reference? 213.222.183.137 (talk) 21:32, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to use most frequent version than it's pretty clear cannot be "Jonas Alšėniškis". Except that this name is more used than others as shown above on this talk page.

Holszany/Olszany it's clearly Slavic name Patently false pseudo-intellectual reasoning. When something is slavicized, of course it will seem Slavic. Professor Zigmas Zinkevičius writes that the name originally was the Lithuanian Galšia (Galse is mentioned in Die Littauischen Wegeberichte in 1385), which then became *Galšėnai, then being simplified to Alšėnai and the Polish Holszany (p86, Lietuvių kalbos istorija. T.4 - Lietuvių kalba XVIII-XIX a.). Moreover, this town was in territories that were ethnically Baltic/Lithuanian until the last few centuries, so a Slavic origin contradicts historical reality. Although your baseless statement is not a surprise considering your ignorance on the subject. This is not baseless name-calling, but a simple observation considering the highly inaccurate statement, which is definitely related but on a different talk page: The border of modern Lithuania seems a reasonable, objective delineation. Especially since it was more or less the border of the Baltic and Slavic ethnolects in the 15th-16th centuries. [11]. Which is verifiably false, as Lithuania proper extended far beyond that border for centuries after the 15th-16th centuries. Cukrakalnis (talk) 16:12, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.